Tim Lewis: I’ve seen Azriel speak about Facebook Ads quite a few times. I’ve also listened to him on several podcasts, being interviews. He’s one of the best communicators when it comes to talking about Facebook, and about advertising mediums online. He’s a really superb expert in the world of Facebook advertising.
Tim Lewis: Now I know I’ve had somebody on to talk about Facebook advertising before, but given this is such a popular topic, I thought I’d get another expert to talk about Facebook ads and how appropriate they actually are for many self publishers. I think in this interview, Azriel is actually quite clear about if you’ve just got one very low value book, and that’s all you’ve got, maybe Facebook advertising isn’t the way to go. Unless you’re using it as some kind of lost leader. Certainly writing in series, or if you’ve got the expectation that you’re going to be writing a lot of books going forward, or you’ve got another product, then Facebook advertising can make tremendous sense.
Tim Lewis: On the other hand, it isn’t the magic wand that maybe it was a few years ago. So anyway, let’s get over to the interview.
Tim Lewis: Hello Azriel. Welcome to the show.
Azriel Ratz: Hi Tim, thanks so much for having me.
Tim Lewis: Okay, so we’re gonna talk about how you’re using Facebook advertising in a moment. What is the biggest reason people fail with Facebook advertising?
Azriel Ratz: To answer that question, the first thing I would have in mind is that there are a lot of moving parts on Facebook.
Azriel Ratz: Step one is the actual targeting of who you want to reach. People don’t know that when you target the wrong people, even with the right message, you won’t get the results you want. So unless your targeting is really nailed down, you’re not gonna get anything.
Azriel Ratz: On the flip side of that, you could have really great targeting, but the wrong ad created. And then also you won’t be able to get the result that you want. I would say the biggest thing that people are missing out on is simply the large amount of testing that is necessary, so that you can make sure you’re getting in front of the right people with the right message.
Tim Lewis: Okay. We were talking about this a little in the pre-chat, most people who are trying to advertise books, they’re very low value products in general. What is the best way to try and use Facebook advertising to sell something like a book when it might sell for 5 dollars, and they make 2 dollars for each copy sold. How would you go about advertising that kind of product?
Azriel Ratz: I have a general thesis on Facebook ads that unless your total value for a single customer is at least 70 dollars, it’s probably not even worth it to run the ad. So the real question you need to think about when you’re selling a product where the profit is only 2 dollars, is what is my end result? What is the thing I actually want out of this book? Is it that your plan is to sell a whole series of 20 books? Is the hope to become a famous speaker that’s going to travel around the world talking about this fictional character that you’ve created?
Azriel Ratz: Really you have to figure out, what is it that I really want out of these ads? And then, it’s most likely worth it to just use the book as a loss leader. Just say, I’m gonna sell my book 5 dollars, I’m lucky if I can even break even with it, but at least I know that I’m getting one step closer to getting this person to recognise me as a famous author. To get to speak at a bookstore, maybe get to speak at a conference on writing fiction books.
Azriel Ratz: Really the actual sale of the book to me, is much less important than what the actual end goal is. If your end goal is to sell a bunch of books, so then create all of those books over time, use the E-book as a lead generation tool. Get as many people on an E-mail list so that they know when book two comes out, when book three comes out, when book four comes out. And then when you spend the time and written your 10 volume series of this fictional world, now you can turn around and sell it for a serious amount of profit, as opposed to the single book that you are barely making any sort of profit on.
Tim Lewis: Yeah. I mean I went to … It was a 20 books to 50K conference, which is about self-publishing. The people that were using Facebook advertising, they had like yeah, 10, 12 books. It was kind of like they were selling the first book, but they were expecting a certain amount of read through. And yeah you’re right, you have to have a lot of volume in terms of potential, what other people are doing afterwards.
Azriel Ratz: But what’s great about that is that with Facebook, you can know exactly where someone is in your funnel process. You could say, step one is they should know that I exist as an author. Right? So you can make a few videos, maybe be on a podcast share, whatever it is, a blog post. Just so that people know you exist. Then, you tell them, oh by the way I have a book. And you wanna sell that book. This step I kinda call like, you want people to taste your product. A lot of people turn around and give the first chapter away for free, but in this case, where you’re only selling it for five dollars anyways, so just give it away for as cheap as you can. Just so that they taste it, wow this person’s a really good author. Wow this story line’s really fantastic, I’d love to see more of this story line.
Azriel Ratz: And then, you now have these people as interested, engaged leads. And then when you turn around and you have that full series ready to go, they’re ready to make that big commitment of buying a 10 volume set. Because you’re on Facebook, you could actually know what they’re up to in that funnel. You could say, oh they’ve been to my blog already, oh they’ve watched my video already, oh they’ve already liked my Facebook page, oh they already signed up for my E-mail list, oh they’ve already bought the first book. You know all those pieces of information, and then based on what you know about those people, you could then target them with exactly the right ad to move them just one more step down your marketing funnel, to get them just that much closer to becoming loyal, engaged buyers in the future.
Tim Lewis: I don’t know that most people on this show have heard of the term funnel before, but that’s basically the journey where people are moving closer and closer to actually buying and/or becoming a super fan of your products later on.
Tim Lewis: You talked about this a little bit, but I know you’re a fan of testing out multiple variants of adverts and targeting groups. What sort of process do you use in terms of doing the testing on Facebook to work out what’s actually gonna work?
Azriel Ratz: I would say the first, most important testing, is how you’re actually targeting people. Why that’s so important to me is because there’s a lot of ways that you could target the same group of people. Let’s say you want to reach women in LA with kids between the age of 8 and 12. One easy way to do that is just target LA women, with the behaviour of being a parent with a kid between the ages of 8 and 12. Done. Finished. I ran ads then. But it’s actually very likely that you could reach that same group of women if you targeted them just a little differently.
Azriel Ratz: Let’s say we could create a list of interests, like karate, and arts and crafts, and maybe some TV shows that only kids watch. And then when you’re running ads to a woman in LA between an age group of let’s say 35 and 55, and they have interests of arts and crafts, karate, and SpongeBob SquarePants, that is likely going to be the same overlap group as someone who is parent between the age of 8 and 12.
Azriel Ratz: By running those two ad audiences in two separate ad sets, against each other, you could actually figure out ways to target the same exact people for likely a much less price. I would say testing on the audience level is what’s the first step of figuring out how to save a significant amount of money. And just simply taking all of the audiences you already have, and targeting them in separate ad set. So if you already have a Facebook page, great, people that like your Facebook. You already have a website that people visit, in a separate ad set, the website visitors. You have an E-mail list, in a separate ad set, the E-mail subscribers.
Azriel Ratz: Essentially you’re creating a separate ad set for each audience, and that will allow you to actually learn which audiences are the most powerful. Is it look-alike audiences that are purchasers? Or is it a group of interests that I created based on things I know about the people that are buying my book?
Tim Lewis: But don’t be running the same adverts in all of those ad sets then.
Azriel Ratz: Same exact ads in each ad set. Because when you’re first starting, and you have a low amount of money to spend, when creating hundreds of ads, which is something I do think is worthwhile to do and I can explain later, if you’re not spending a significant amount of money and your first question is who is my audience that works? I would first focus on that question. What’s the best way for me to reach the best people? Because that’s where you’re gonna be saving a lot of money. You could literally take the same audience and just target them in a different way, and save five dollars cost for 1,000 impressions. That’s a huge amount of money.
Azriel Ratz: But even if you slightly tweak your video, or slightly make your ad copy a little better, you’re not gonna save five dollars an impression. You’re gonna save maybe a couple cents here and there. And then on the grand scheme of things, that’ll save you a lot of money. But unless you’ve done the work of actually figuring out the best possible way to target your audience, you’re likely not going to get the best results you can.
Tim Lewis: Yeah. Do you ever get anybody who suffers from the problem that they don’t really know who their audience is? I mean you’re kind of picking a very distinct group of women in LA with children between 8 and 12, but if somebody really doesn’t know that well what they should be targeting, how would you deal with that situation? Is that more that they should just be going back, sort of looking at comparisons? Or is there a systematic approach at kind of working out what the audience should be?
Azriel Ratz: Well the real question you need to ask yourself is why did I make this product?
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: Because I don’t wanna make a product and then go, well who would buy this? What I wanna do is I wanna have a problem that people have, solve the problem, and then give the solution to those people who have the problem. The audience existed already. I already knew who, in theory, want my product because I only developed the product so that I could sell it to these people.
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: So if you have no idea who your audience … So the first question you wanna ask is, I just put money into making this thing. What problem did I solve? And the, who would want this solution? That’s how you create your audience?
Azriel Ratz: Then you just say, the problem I’m solving is that there are really no good dragon time travelling fiction books. There aren’t enough dragon time travelling fiction books. So that’s my problem. So now the question is, what type of person wants to read a dragon time travelling fiction book? And then you kinda just break it down. I have a list of different authors that write a lot about dragons, and I have a lot of authors that write a lot about time travel. So people that would be interested in these two big name authors, might be interested in the mix of dragons and time travelling. Their audiences might be a great potential targeting to start off with, for who you wanna reach to sell your book that has to do with those two topics that overlap.
Tim Lewis: Yeah. Okay, so that kinda makes sense. It’s kind of endemic in the world of fiction writing for people to write books and then look for audience afterwards. It’s almost a unique thing … Well actually, it’s not that unique in online business, but it’s more obvious when people create products in the online business space that have no audience.
Tim Lewis: We’ve talked a bit about targeting, but generally, what kind of targeting options are working well and people should be making use of? We’ve obviously talked about like custom audiences and actual targeting, what targeting options do you think most people should be gravitating towards eventually?
Azriel Ratz: If you have a limited budget on Facebook, which when I mean limited I mean you don’t have $10,000 every month to spend, you should be putting 80 percent of your money in people that already know who you are. It is likely that you have … Let’s just throw a number. You have 5,000 people that like your Facebook page, it’s unlikely in my mind that more than 30 percent of those people bought your thing.
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: So if you can’t convince the 70 percent of people that already like your Facebook page to buy your thing, you’re not gonna convince a group of people who’ve never heard of you to buy your thing. I wanna put my resources, first, into building the best possible system to get the people that already know who I am. They’re already coming to my website, they’re already reading my blog, they’re already listening to my podcast, they’re already liking my Facebook page, they’re already watching my videos, they’re already engaging with my content. They already know who I am. I wanna figure out the best way to get them to buy my product. Put all of my resources in figuring out how to sell to them.
Azriel Ratz: Once I’ve built a system that works for them, which might not just be on Facebook, it might be a whole get them on an E-mail list, send them three E-mails, re target them with a Google ad, send them a message on LinkedIn, show them a bunch of things on Instagram, get them to see your guest podcast on some other website, whatever that is, you figure the whole thing out. Amazing. And now, they actually bought. Then you say, okay great, I was able to get my people to buy, so now how do I then reach new people to make them into people that know who I am? What do I have to tell those people, who’ve never heard of me, so that they could become just like the people I was able to sell and like my Facebook page?
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: Because if I could move people from Facebook like to buy, and I could move people from never having heard of me to become a Facebook like, by putting those two parts together, I now have someone who’s never heard of me to become a Facebook like, to eventually become a buyer. If I could figure out how to get that system to work, I could put as much money as I want, and just keep on getting results over and over and over again.
Azriel Ratz: If you put your money in the right way, if you first put 80 percent of your budget every month into people that already know who you are, you could then start playing games of interest and look-alikes and behaviour and geographic targeting, all that other stuff. That’s all nice and dandy, but if you can’t sell to your own people, then who cares about all those other people?
Tim Lewis: Yeah, that’s a good point. I should send you my list of questions … I’m gonna split the next question into two, which I was gonna ask you. The original question was basically about how much people should be spending and how much they should spend learning. But let’s start with how much … I mean obviously there are short cuts that people can take in terms of getting started in Facebook ads. Like I think you’ve got your Ratz Pack media kind of group, and the rest of it, and people can join that and maybe get a shortcut in terms of learning Facebook ads. But realistically, how much money would somebody need to pay to kind of learn Facebook advertising? Because people are gonna make mistakes and maybe target the wrong audiences and have to do testing. What is, would you say, is the minimum amount of money that somebody would need to spend just to become efficient in learning Facebook advertising?
Azriel Ratz: When you’re asking that question, are you asking it from the perspective of a business owner that wants to manage their own ads? Or as someone who wants to do Facebook ads for multiple businesses?
Tim Lewis: I’m doing it as a business owner for their own ads. I don’t think we’re gonna be getting into people doing it for other people at the moment.
Azriel Ratz: To answer the second question, I think the answer is probably like 3 years and over 100,000 dollars.
Tim Lewis: Oh. Okay.
Azriel Ratz: Because you have to have seen so many different things to know how to react to different strategies. But if the question is just, I have a business, I wanna become quote on quote good at Facebook ads, can’t see my air quotes here.
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: I wanna build up to be good enough on Facebook ads to run it myself. You mentioned before, my Facebook group. The idea behind that group is exactly this. You wanna be able to run your own ads, for whatever reason it is. And you just wanna make sure that you’re getting pointed in the right direction. You have someone looking over your shoulder.
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: That was really the idea of my Facebook ad group, because you’ve never thought of different targeting options. You’ve never thought of different ways of rebuilding your funnel. You’ve never thought of this type of video that I might suggest, or something that someone else has done, or a lead ad versus a canvas ad versus a carousel ad and all these different terms that could take literally minimum 18 to 24 months to know them all. Just to know all the terms, forget about best practises.
Azriel Ratz: If your thought process is just, I wanna be able to run my ads as a business, and do a good enough job, right? So what do I need to know there? All I need to know is there’s … Facebook breaks your Facebook ad into three steps. Campaign, ad set, ad.
Azriel Ratz: Campaign is where you choose the optimization. What do I actually want to achieve here? I want people to watch my video? Great, there’s an option for that. I want them to click to my website? Amazing, there’s an option for that. I want them to sign up to my webinar? Amazing, there’s a choice for that. I want them to download my app, again that’s an option. That’s the campaign level.
Azriel Ratz: Next thing is ad set. That’s who am I targeting? Again we talk about this is probably the most important part of the whole thing. If you’re not reaching the right people, it doesn’t matter how great or fantastic your ad is, doesn’t matter how amazingly good your website is, if you’re talking to the wrong people, they’re not gonna buy. That’s where the ad set is so important.
Azriel Ratz: And then the actual ad, there’s not so many moving parts here. On the ad. You have three places to put text. Above the image is one line, below the image is the headline, that’s a big black bold text, and then below that is the description, that smaller grey text. You only have three places to put text. Not so complicated. Put in three sentences, done. You know how to do that.
Azriel Ratz: The last thing is just, what is the creative? So in my testing for the last six years, images used to be something I could run ads with. But in the last year, videos have outperformed images every single time. For every single client that I’ve worked with, videos have out-performed images. If you are not creating some sort of video, you’re likely paying double to possibly five times more than you should be for the same exact ad because it’s not moving.
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: So again, creating a video is its own skillset. How do you make video? Probably just pay someone. That’s probably a better option. I have a friend who for like 300 dollars a month, unlimited XYZ, make you a bunch of images, and you can just make a slideshow out of that whole thing. That part takes a little bit of practise.
Azriel Ratz: But again, I’ve created an exact strategy for what the lines of text should be. In my mind, you have three lines of text. That gives you three places to get someone to take action. So what I like to do is, do three different things.
Azriel Ratz: One is address their problem. You know, you have relationship issues, great. Well not great, but I want to address it’s a serious problem. So what you wanna write is, fighting with your spouse? Question mark. Or something like that. And if they’re going through that problem, or need to fit in to that dress in time for prom? Cause they wanna lose weight. So you’re addressing the problem. That’s one line of text.
Azriel Ratz: Line two is sympathise with the problem. Which is, I feel your pain. I’ve been through that before. I’ve helped clients do exactly that. That’s line two.
Azriel Ratz: And then line three is, acknowledge a solution. Which is, I don’t wanna sell here, I want to intrigue interest in learning more about my solution. So you wanna say, there is hope! Or there’s something you could do! Or, have you ever thought maybe there could be a solution? Something along that line. And those are your three lines of text.
Tim Lewis: Yeah
Azriel Ratz: So as long as you follow that strategy of address the problem, sympathise with the problem, and introduce a solution, you are now grabbing attention, connecting with them emotionally, and driving them to your landing page. Where you’re gonna do a much better job at explaining why they should buy your product and how it’s gonna give them a solution. And that’s it. That’s everything about Facebook ads, your welcome. I just saved you 1,000 dollars on your Facebook ads course. That’s the whole thing. If you can nail that process down, while you’re running this ad, who you wanna reach, and connecting with them emotionally, explaining to them that there’s a solution that exists, sending them to your website to get them to fulfil that solution. That’s the whole thing. That’s the whole kit and caboodle
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: You have all the tools now. Could you run ads on your own? Probably. Could someone else who’s an expert do it better than you? Almost definitely. But if all you’re try and do is, I wanna spend this 100 or 300 or 500 or 1,000 dollars. So if you’re gonna pay someone to manager 1,000 dollars, and you’re gonna pay them 1,000 dollars, they’re probably not gonna be worth it. Cause they have to do double as good as you. Now imagine if someone turned into 2,000 dollars. They have to do three times better than you. At just 1,000 dollar ad spend. So unless you’re spending 5,000 dollars a month, there isn’t enough room for the person to do that much better than you.
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: So as long as you understand the basic breakdown of what Facebook looks like, you understand the strategies behind testing so that you could actually find your best audience and find your best ad, then you could run ads on your own. Spend 500 bucks, ya know. What’s the worst that could happen? You lose 500 dollars, that’s it.
Tim Lewis: Yeah. Which brings me on to the second part of my last question which is, in terms of spending, how much would you say is the minimum amount a month that somebody could have useful results from Facebook advertising?
Azriel Ratz: It’s very hard to answer that question. If you’re doing it on your own, the whole thing I just explained, you could do five to ten dollars a day. That’s it. That’s all you need. You have an audience. Let’s say you have a Facebook page with 1,000 likes on it, for five to ten dollars a day, you could reach all of those people every week. And all you have to do is just post one really great post every week, and boost it for five to ten dollars a day, and everyone will see all of those posts. Everyone in your entire Facebook page, for 150 and 300 dollars a month, you’re gonna be able to talk to every single person that likes your Facebook page every single week.
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: And that’s fantastic. Because they know who you are, they like your page, read your content before. And all you’re doing, you’re just continuing to get in front of them on a consistent basis, so that when you have something to sell, you are on the top of their mind.
Azriel Ratz: Now on the flip side of that, if you’re planning to hire someone, and you wanna build this giant strategy to find the best audiences and get the best ads and create good landing pages, and make good videos, and all that stuff, then unless you’re spending 100 dollars a day, it’s probably not even worth your time. Because the amount of testing you’ll need to do to find all those moving parts, and figure out all those things, if you’re spending under 100 dollars, it could take you three, four months just to figure out, oh this look-alike audience doesn’t work. It only cost me eight weeks to find that out because I didn’t spend enough money until now to know that.
Tim Lewis: So it’s kind of a false economy in a way isn’t it? If you’re trying to do it on the cheap.
Azriel Ratz: Right. If you’re doing it on the cheap, then take five dollars, take your entire existing audiences, I said that before. Your E-mail subscribers, website visitors, Facebook likes, page engagement, all of those people, throw them all together into one ad set, done. And spend ten dollars a day. That’s it. You’ve reached everyone. Until you can nail down exactly the process to sell to those people, don’t talk to anyone else.
Tim Lewis: Yeah. Start with your super fans, well … Turn your fans into super fans or something, isn’t it. That’s the proper …
Azriel Ratz: Exactly, yes.
Tim Lewis: A question occurred to me during the interview, which I think you’ve probably got a unique … Well not a unique perspective, cause there’s probably a couple other million people in the world, but in terms of advertising outside the US and the EU, have you noticed any differences culturally in using Facebook advertising, say in like Israel, where you’re from? Or like Africa? Or Asia? Are there differences in the way that Facebook adverts work around the world?
Azriel Ratz: The answer to that is several issues. One is the actual cultural differences. So if you look at … I actually have a friend who specialises in conversion of marketing from English to Chinese.
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: And it’s not just enough to translate the works, like the actual texts, but the time it takes to understand the culture between Asia and America. How people think there, is a little different. The culture of how people act in China … Just one example, in America, when you would think of the colour red, that brings up the idea of murder and whatever. Like depending on the shade of red, it could be like romance, or something dramatic.
Red could be a very dramatic colour. But in Asia, women don’t wear white wedding gowns, they wear the red wedding gowns. So red no longer means a dramatic colour, but rather like a … What’s the word I’m looking for here?
Tim Lewis: Normal?
Azriel Ratz: Not normal, but like innocence.
Tim Lewis: Oh yeah, so red and white kinda switch over from a cultural perspective.
Azriel Ratz: Exactly. Like white kinda means pure, so that’s what red means. The feeling that people get, in China, about the colour red is almost entirely flipped between what the feeling is in America, in Europe and America, then what it is in China. So the first step is to really understand the culture of that place.
Azriel Ratz: The second thing is to understand how well do they understand the language I’m targeting them in? So for example, I’ve lived in Israel now, for seven years, but I’m originally from New York. So if I’m scrolling through Facebook and I see an ad in Hebrew, I have to translate the words of that ad. And I’m on Facebook, I don’t have any interest in translating in my head what these words mean. That’s not my job. You’re not paying me enough to read your ad. That ruins it for me. So unless your ad imagery is so amazingly fantastic, I’m gonna simply skip over that ad because why should I have to work? I’m on Facebook right now.
Tim Lewis: Yeah
Azriel Ratz: The next part is making sure the people that you’re targeting are willing to spend the time to read the language that is not their native tongue. So for example, in the Philippines, they don’t natively speak English, but their English is good enough, that if they’re scrolling through Facebook, they’re likely going to stop and actually read the ad. Because they’re English is that good enough, for them to read it.
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: That’s the next thing, is the language good? And then, by taking those two things and several other not as important factors, you’re gonna be able to say, will the structure of my marketing funnel then working well in some other place, also work in this country?
Tim Lewis: Yeah.
Azriel Ratz: And then the last part is really, really important. When you’re running ads to countries that are cheaper to target, so like African countries, Middle Eastern countries, it’s much cheaper to run ads to those places because there’s less competition to reach those same audiences. But if I use the wrong objective in my ad, I’m going to be running ads to the cheapest people in the most ineffective countries.
Azriel Ratz: So if you run a Facebook page like campaign, and these people in general like way more pages than anyone else on Earth. You know that the average person on Facebook likes just one Facebook page?
Tim Lewis: Really?
Azriel Ratz: Yes. Which is very little. Because I like probably over 500 Facebook pages.
Tim Lewis: Yeah, I’m more than that.
Azriel Ratz: Yeah. So if you find a group of people in the middle of Africa that like 10,000 pages, on average. Their Facebook like, page like, will mean a lot less than your Facebook like, another Facebook page like. But if you ran that same ad, with the same copy, with same imagery, with the same lining page, instead for conversions on leads, Facebook’s gonna look through that same audience of people that you’re targeting and say, oh this group of 100,000 people actually have the money to spend and they’re seriously interested in your offer and you’ve done a good job of converting the cultural differences in the ads. So those people, you’ll be able to reach them for way less money. We’re talking about 10 times less, than in America, UK, Europe. Those types of places. And they will potentially be buyers that could make you way more money in profit, than in comparison to other countries.
Tim Lewis: Yeah. But you need to do the work, don’t you?
Azriel Ratz: Right.
Tim Lewis: Okay, so I think that just about round up the interview. Although, I think we could talk about it for ages, if need be. But how can people find out about Azriel Ratz and the things that you do?
Azriel Ratz: I would say the best place to connect with me is on my Facebook page, Ratz Pack Media. And on, surprisingly, my LinkedIn account, just search Azriel Ratz into LinkedIn, and between those two places, I try to post as much free content as I can possibly produce. I post between four and five videos every single week on everything. Online marketing, Facebook ads, funnels, so on and so on. I think those are the two best places.I learned a lot from Azriel Ratz's (@ratzpackmedia)'s interview on the Begin Self-Publishing Podcast talking about Facebook ads.Click To Tweet
Tim Lewis: Okay, well it was great to have you on the show today, Azriel.
Azriel Ratz: Thank you so much for having me, Tim.